财政预算2008系列(9) - 负扣税，投资扣税和福利的影响

黑山老妖

申请福利的收入标准将要改变（2009年起）。这一变化将严重影响有投资和负扣税人群。千万仔细读一读。

BUDGET 2008: Mauling higher incomes

Treasurer Wayne Swan and Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner have unveiled a secret weapon to maul the finances of higher income families – and all in the name of tax 'fairness'. And this attack in 2008 is only the first round, I fear there is more to come.

A large number of middle income families negatively gear property or shares and/or salary sacrifice into superannuation or into reportable fringe benefits with two objectives in mind. The first is to save tax and second is to spend on education and other allowances. It is also sometimes used to lower dependency payments. Losses on investments can have a similar effect.

The tax deductibility of negative gearing and salary sacrifice has not been touched in the budget but from July 1 2009, in assessing means-tested income, the amounts salary sacrificed, the negative gearing benefits, the fringe benefits and investment losses will all be added onto income. And so the new income test for the family tax benefits is to be calculated on the increased income. The same applies to education and many other allowances.

The caps on family benefits are stated as being subject to a $150,000 "income" limit, but for people with less than three children the cut off point is less than that and will be less again once the new definitions are used.

From July 1 2009, the medical benefit surcharge thresholds of $100,000 for singles and $150,000 for couples will be defined using the new calculations of income – effectively for many people the thresholds will be lowered.

There are other attacks on middle income Australia including subjecting 'meal card' arrangements to FBT (where the employer pays for meals consumed by the employee on the premises as part of a salary package) and removing FBT exemption for work related items mainly used for private purposes such as laptops plus other FBT tightening moves. All of these items will cause major reviews of many current salary packages.

The second round of middle income blows will start with school fees. Middle income families in Victoria are going to be hit with much higher private school fees as a result as the big teacher pay rises in the state system spread to private schools, especially as there does not seem to be any provision in the budget for increased help to private schools to help pay for the rises. Those teacher pay rises are certain to quickly spread to other states and will present a major impost on those sending their children to private schools. This will multiply the effect of the reduction in Government help.

Once income for social services is reduced by these items then every budget from now on will have speculation that negative gearing and salary sacrificing will be curbed in calculating income.

And as it happens, claiming tax deductions in excess of income (negative gearing) to buy shares and now residential houses has not been very profitable in the last 12 months, given the fall in asset values. And as I explain in BUDGET 2008: The infrastructure challenge, May 13 the Rudd Government is trying to increase the supply of low cost homes.

Given that tax rates have now been reduced, the tax reduction manoeuvres will become less popular among middle income earners.

[ 本帖最后由 黑山老妖 于 2008-5-14 10:46 编辑 ]

philgu

This budgets confirms why I didn't vote for labor and never will.
It totally sends the wrong message taking away the incentive for society to work harder or smarter. Stay home and do not get educated and u will get rewarded. They indicated this is the first bullet in the serie so I won't be surprised that the negative gearing and CGT discount will be next one to go after the tax review. Remember that is only way out for those salaried and so called "well off" people to get any meaningful tax relief. Once those policies are out. The housing price will come down and rent will go up. So called poor people now can afford housing at expense of most of homeowners. There will be no reason for investment to stay in australia (property or equity) as after tax it wouldn't make number work without tax relief. I might consider live on dole for a couple of years for a change. That will be nice.

黑山老妖

Single income is looking like the way to go.

xingbu

the negative gearing benefits, the fringe benefits and investment losses will all be added onto income.

没看明白，negative gearing benefits如果加入收入中，不是就没有negative gearing了吗？

the fringe benefits and investment losses 这些不是现在也要加入到收入里吗？:o

work related items ex. laptop 那些取消掉FBT exemption确实挺伤人的。

请问这些只是议案？还是通过了1/7/09 就要执行？

philgu

Yeah. There is no point getting other half to work anymore. That really makes my point that the gov deters people getting into the workforce and make something out of themselves.

The other happy options could be move overseas to work for a few years earning low tax dollar and come back paying off mortgage. Stash u cash under the mattress and live on dole happily ever after.

黑山老妖

原帖由 xingbu 于 14/5/2008 10:44 发表
the negative gearing benefits, the fringe benefits and investment losses will all be added onto income.

没看明白，negative gearing benefits如果加入收入中，不是就没有negative gearing了吗？

the fringe benefits and investment losses 这些不是现在也要加入到收入里吗？

work related items ex. laptop 那些取消掉FBT exemption确实挺伤人的。

请问这些只是议案？还是通过了1/7/09 就要执行？

这个意思就是说：
如果一家人工作收入$160,000，负扣税$50,000(投资房)，FBT $10,000(salary sacrifice)。那么按照原来的算法家庭收入是$110,000。可以拿福利。但是按照新的算法，家庭收入是$170,000。没福利了。。。:si85

目前还是提案。。。希望这部分不要通过。不过估计通过的机会还是挺大的。

Simplelife

What does "salary sacrifice" mean?

philgu

Yeah. In a highly taxed society, u need to give people a way out. Currently negative gearing and CGT discount is the only meaningful one. If this is taken away, either people take more risks to avoid tax or lay back by not working hard. Work hard and expect "tax rage". Take sydney's north shore for example, people are highly taxed but not even reasonable input from government for health and education (state labor government that is as people don't vote them in the region so no money). Royal North shore and hornsby hospitals are in shambles and denied funding for long time. Primary school in Wharoonga has only so few toilets that it takes long queue. Parents are raising money to do basic school upgrades. No wonder people send their  kids to private ones as the public ones were underfunded.

VIP

如果这个通过了,负扣税对房市的重要性,就能看出一点了.要是负扣税没了,拿"房产增值"做大前提的人就可以歇歇嘴了.

大飞熊

那么房租肯定要会涨了。

黑山老妖

负扣税很重要。没了负扣税房租相对房价至少涨一倍。

philgu

House price falls and rent jumps to 9-10% yield. Investors take a hit on asset price and slowly claw back from rent (after years of holding).
In that case, it is far safer to buy in well established area. Inner city's property price is demand drivenn and outer suburbs is supply driven (RBA's latest analysis). Under labor, I bet the supply in the outer suburb will be increased a lot.

黑山老妖

Price will tumble but rent will sour.

daffodil

原帖由 philgu 于 2008-5-14 10:40 发表
This budgets confirms why I didn't vote for labor and never will.
It totally sends the wrong message taking away the incentive for society to work harder or smarter. Stay home and do not get educated ...

我很赞同. 工党最拿手的也就是劫中产济平民. 真正的有钱人从来不敢碰.

一直指责自由党的税收政策偏向中产. 其实中产的税收一直以来是政府发放各项福利的重要来源之一, 但很多中产家庭交了那么多的税, 却没有资格享受任何福利.

牢固的中产阶层向来是稳定社会的基础. 如果中产的利益得不到政府的支持和保障, 如果大家都宁愿拿救济金而不愿工作, 政府的福利制度又何从贯彻执行? 难怪几乎历届澳洲工党政府都债台高筑了.

夢回唐朝

没完全理解
妖大再具体解释解释吧

西边雨

原帖由 黑山老妖 于 2008-5-14 10:53 发表


这个意思就是说：
如果一家人工作收入$160,000，负扣税$50,000(投资房)，FBT $10,000(salary sacrifice)。那么按照原来的算法家庭收入是$110,000。可以拿福利。但是按照新的算法，家庭收入是$170,000。没福利了 ...

还不是很明白~~：（

黑山老妖

本来福利和税务上的收入定义是一样的。
就是说退税单上说的assessable income就是Centrelink理解的assessable income。
09年开始centrelink和税务局的收入定义不一样了。

bffbffbff

老黑能不能把首页你引用的那段的原文的link给出来啊？

黑山老妖

原帖由 bffbffbff 于 14/5/2008 12:34 发表
老黑能不能把首页你引用的那段的原文的link给出来啊？

顶楼的加了连接了。

bffbffbff

thx

甜螺

喜欢 Rudd, 但经济上确实要吃亏。看来要考虑停下来，生孩子，带孩子了。

请教老妖，如果付扣税取消（个人觉得不会完全取消，因为后果太严重），对投资房的对策岂不是竭尽全力早付清，停工作，吃房租了？

澳洲桉树

NEGATIVE GEARING取消与否与房租上涨无必然关系，房租是个完全开放的供求市场，单方面大幅上涨将引起移民的撤退和本地白人青年MOVING OVERSEAS，从而使房租达到新的平衡点，因为澳洲不是世界上唯一可以生存的地方，通向美国的E-1签证才是澳洲房价的真正调节器。

baolqun

有中文版么？

我为kitty狂

原帖由 baolqun 于 2008-5-15 13:48 发表
有中文版么？

同问

黑山老妖

没有人翻译哪来中文版。。。

Devil_Star

我最难理解那个要提高免MEDICARE SUBCHARGE门槛的提案， 不是就是让人别去买吗

黑山老妖

原帖由 Devil_Star 于 15/5/2008 21:50 发表
我最难理解那个要提高免MEDICARE SUBCHARGE门槛的提案， 不是就是让人别去买吗

And the government saves on the 30% rebate too.
win-win for tax payer and government. And the private health insurance company and other tax payers are the loosers...

对酒当歌

原帖由 黑山老妖 于 2008-5-14 11:13 发表
负扣税很重要。没了负扣税房租相对房价至少涨一倍。

我这个是完全没摸到头脑，强烈建议解析一下

还有那个NEGATIVE GEARING BENEFIT本来就是负数的，还能给工党当是benefit啊？不是吧？？？

[ 本帖最后由 对酒当歌 于 2008-5-15 22:06 编辑 ]

河马

我的看法和楼上几位同学不太一样。这个变化，就像老妖解释的那样，只是影响领福利的人。并不是要取消negative gearing的意思。

我理解这还是个fairness的问题。只是收紧福利，并不是说中产家庭就没有任何福利（当然要看如何定义中产家庭的收入水平）。

这个一定是有人觉得不公平。比如收入正好处于被影响区间的有孩子的人会觉得不公平。可是对于我这样的单身汉来说，这个就很公平。我一向不觉得政府应该支付那么多的baby bonus和family tax benefit。

不过这个坛子上我猜有孩子的居多。我还是闪得好。

loushenghong

我的理解也是：Negative Gearing还是有的。比如＄５０，００0是你的negative gearing部分，你交３０％那档的税，你还是可以退回来＄１５,000。

但是＄５０,000亏损要加回你的总assessable income里面，假如你assessable income 是＄１０万，那么加上这个＄５万，就１５万了，你就无法享受补贴。

如果Nagative gearing取消了，将是kill the economy的决策，那些买房，买股票，投资都会受到严重影响，取消的结果就是中低下收入的人将留在澳洲，高收入年轻精英，包括移民将离开澳洲，去税收便宜的地方工作，例如新加坡，美国（如果工作容易 的话）。

如果长久之下，澳洲就会经济倒退，牛人都要走路了。。至少我和LG每年交将近＄４.５万的税，如果不能通过投资途径退税２万的话，是疯掉了

[ 本帖最后由 loushenghong 于 2008-5-22 09:57 编辑 ]